Saturday, September 10, 2016
Is Plato a Feminist?
Plato, through the mouthpiece of Socrates, advocates some radical views about woman in Chapter 7 of the Republic. In particular, he argues not only that women can be guardians, but that they can have equal duties (more or less) and an identical education. The only exception he makes is for physical difference between the sexes. These views are in stark contrast to a woman's place in 5th century Athens, in which a woman was prohibited from a political life and confined to the domestic household (and had a similarly limited education). Does it make sense to call Plato a feminist (and does it depend on your notion of feminism)? Or does Plato still miss something important about women? Furthermore, have we in 21st century America realized his ideas?
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While different answers arise when Plato and the word feminist are combined, due to the word’s interpretation, this question will be answered according to the dictionary definition. Merriam Webster classifies this word as, “The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities… [One] in support of women’s rights and interests”. Throughout chapter 7 of the Republic, Plato portrays Socrates as one who takes the time to discuss the roles woman, in the “perfect community”, would be able to play out. He mentions that women would be allowed to have the chance to become Guardians. Socrates argues that just because their physical makeup is different, it does not mean their gender should be disqualified for positions, “But if the only difference turns out to be that females bear offspring…doesn’t yet bring us any closer at all to proving that men and women are different” (454d-e). Yet, moments later, Socrates is saying that although inborn qualities are on an equal plane, “They are the weaker sex in all respects.” “In all respects” meaning overall, thoroughly, and with all inclusivity. His words mean that although every female has the right to every opportunity, the majority of men will end up obtaining the opportunities due to the result of women being the “weaker sex”. The end result will show that the men are outnumbering women in these higher social class opportunities sending the message that the outcome, which is visible to the whole society, is gender driven. Yet, to combat against this view, Socrates has plans that would allow the select few, who do become guardians, to an equal quality of education despite his fact that, “men may be better at most things” (451b). So although Plato is fulfilling the definition, since he speaks of giving woman equal right (such as education) and opportunities (being able to obtain the position as a guardian), the opportunity given does not lead to equal outcomes which he is aware of because woman are the “weaker sex”. Plato is expressing ideas that are headed in the right direction of feminism. He tackles an issue that could have been easily overlooked due to its complexity. In fact the idea of women holding certain positions in our society is still a delicate topic. Yet, he is expressing these ideas through words, not actions. Words to not promise anything and are not definitive. Actions hold a stronger correlation in the sense of playing out one’s own beliefs. Plato is setting up this ideal society separating it from his current reality. He could have these beliefs for his society, yet he does not represent or act upon any of his ideas he has mentioned concerning the current world he is living in, thus making him not be a feminist.
ReplyDeleteThe word feminism generates a wide range of reactions in today’s society. While many think it’s the idea that men and women are equal in every sense of the word, not just in opportunity, many others see it as a movement that’s been tainted by radicals who only seek to hate on men. I think we can only view feminism as a whole if we take into account all these perspectives. It doesn’t matter what the movement started as, it matters what it has become, and it’s true that some feminists view all men as innately evil and sexist. One only needs to do a quick google search to find examples. In Plato’s case, he certainly supports the principle of giving women equal opportunity in society. Socrates and Glaucon agree that men and women “should share in everything”, which suggests Plato also endorses this view (451e). He also thinks we need to educate men and women “in the same way” in order to allow both sexes to serve the same purposes in society (451e). However, he adds the regrettable sidenote that he believes women “are the weaker sex in all respects” (455d). Thus he believes men will hold most positions in society. In response to Ruthie’s comment, however, I don’t think his sexist beliefs mean that he’s actively trying to set up society so that men will have more opportunity. In other words, Plato might think that men will end up with more jobs, but I don’t think it will turn out this way because he wants the sexes to have equal opportunity and his view on women is incorrect. If Plato is wrong (which I think he is), and women are equal in every respect except by and large strength, then there will be an almost equal number of male and female guardians, doctors, shoemakers and so on because almost all professions rely more on intellect than strength. I don’t think men and women would hold the same number of military positions, because strength is valuable in close combat. In determining if he’s a feminist, I’ll take a centrist view on feminism. Google does a good job in providing such view, stating that feminism is “the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men”. Under this definition, Plato is a feminist. If, however, you think feminism includes the view that men and women are equal in all respects, he’s in big violation and isn’t a feminist. To conclude, I think instead of criticizing Plato for his view on the nature of women, we should be praising him for his progressive view on equal opportunity in the context of his culture. In Athens, women were the furthest thing from equal, and Plato wanted to wanted them to have equal opportunity. Today we scoff at anyone who doesn’t view men and women as intrinsically equal, but for his time it’s a radical notion and he should be applauded for moving in the right direction.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Oxford Dictionary, feminism is "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. " That being said, a feminist is someone who believes that no one should be discriminated against due to sex. This belief is primarily relevant in the workforce, where issues like gender discrimination and unequal pay are a constant issue. While discussing his creation of a perfect society, Plato delves into the issue of gender rights. This conversation is a bit muddled, but one can still discern that Plato is a feminist. He validates this fact through his statement about women's roles. "Innate qualities have been distributed equally between the two sexes, and women can join in every occupation just as much as men." (Plato 455d) Plato is saying that both sexes deserve equal opportunities for jobs as men. Plato is making the very blatant argument that sex has no influence on a person's ability to perform their job, and thus they shouldn't be treated differently based on their sex. Plato has a basic understanding of feminism, and though perhaps may not be up to par with our modern definition, still qualifies as a feminist.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, Plato still fails to realize the true potential of women. This is no fault of his own, but rather it was a common way of thinking, especially in Athens. Plato only saw women as an accessory to men. At no point did he consider the idea that a women has just as much (if not more) to offer to society than most men. Unfortunately, this was a widely held view at the time, and the concept of genuine gender equality is a rather recent concept.
To conclude, Plato was far ahead of his time with his view of women. His views, although admittedly dated, are in sync with that of Feminism. Plato believes in fundamental equality; the idea that no person should be disregarded based on sex, and that someone's intelligence is far more important than their sex. This qualifies Plato as a feminist.
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ReplyDeleteIn response to the prompt above, while the text does say that women and men, “should share in everything…The only qualification is that we’re dealing with a physically weaker sex: the males are stronger,” Plato’s Socrates later goes on to say that women, “are the weaker sex in all respects,” and that last qualification with the word all makes all the difference (162, 167). One’s definition of feminism definitely dictates how she would respond to this presented idea; if the definition is equal opportunity, Plato may be considered a hero in the history of feminism, advocating that women with great potential should be liberated from the cage that is the domestic household and the duties that go with it. As stated in the prompt, the idea that able women should be able to be part of the work force, be part of the golden guardians no less, is a radical idea that many citizens of Athens would abhor and mock. However, Plato points out that other brilliant ideas have been mocked before, such as exercising naked (on page 163) but it was later proved to be a superior method than to exercise with clothing; similarly, Plato argues that it is imperative to see whether his proposal is viable, “whether the doubt is expressed humorously or seriously,” (164). He goes on to sincerely explore the notion of females working alongside men, and if anyone’s definition of feminism is providing equal opportunity between men and women, she could see Plato as a feminist. She would perhaps further be delighted by his idea of the communal family, allowing able women to escape the responsibilities of child-rearing and giving them the opportunity to focus on their main job, just like their male counterparts.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in my eyes, while I admire Plato’s ability to consider ideas outside the box of societal restriction, he is not a feminist. It is for the very reason that I mentioned in the first sentence; believing women are generally physically weaker is believing in a fact, while believing that women are weaker in all respects is believing in a detrimental lie. If the notion that women are inherently inferior to men is part of the backbone of society, it becomes a breeding ground for more injustice. My definition of feminism is the belief that men and women are equal, period (except for maybe just their physical aptitudes). As noted in Plato at the Googleplex by Rebecca Goldstein, Plato’s idea focuses less, “if at all, on the unfairness to women in depriving them of equal opportunity but rather on the unfairness to the state in depriving it of all its talented individuals” (67). Thus, Plato’s argument is purely tactical, as he does not truly believe that women are man’s equal, or that they deserve the opportunities because their confinement to domestic duty is unjust; he simply wants women who can do the job to do it for the sake of his precious utopia. Due to his intrinsic prejudiced beliefs towards women, I can never comfortably call Plato a feminist.
In our modern day American society, it sure seems that women are given equal opportunity and can compete in any field as long as they are as competent as their male counterparts. So in these terms, yes, Plato’s ideas have been realized: able women are able to compete for jobs in the workforce, while the lingering belief of their inferiority is still present.
-Seysha
The notion of feminism is deeply controversial in today's society. Some closely identify feminism with the absolute equality of men and women, and for others, it has evolved into a word that connotes female superiority. So yes, it absolutely matters what your definition of "feminism" is when trying to identify if Plato is a feminist. Feminism is defined by Merriam-Webster Dictionary as, "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities". In many ways this is what Plato advocates for, but not for the same reasons that today's feminists do. Plato states, "Innate qualities have been distributed equally between the two sexes, and women can join in every occupation just as much as men, although they are the weaker sex in all respects." Plato is advocating for women to join the workforce because it would ultimately be more productive to society, not because he actually thinks that women are equal to men. Believing in equality on its most basic level is what feminism is all about in today's society. Believing that women are equal to men is different than believing that it would be better for society if women were treated as equal to men. Plato isn't a feminist in terms of today's ideology because he lacks the basic concept of what equality truly is, but he was a feminist in terms of his time period. I think in many ways even though we haven't adapted Plato's views on communally raising children we have used his ideology. Women more than ever are being given equal opportunity in the workforce in order to create the most productive and successful society.
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